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John Holmes
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 Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:04 am Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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I believe the Holocaust was essentially tied to Operation Barbarossa.
No Barbarossa, probably no Holocaust. In Hitler's mind, Jews and
communism were the same thing. So when he decided to destroy the
Soviet Union, the Holocaust was simply part of the same package.
As it happens this is also the opinion of Goldhagen, at least as far
as timing is concerned. It was definitely *not* the opinion of Mayer.
Life is complicated.
-jh-
On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, nada wrote:
| Quote: | Just ad my two duestchmarks here, I think the severe anti-Semitism of the
Nazis and the ultimate solution they ended up with toward the end of their
war against Europe and Russia did not have to happen. I think there was a
"serious of unfortunate events" that lead to this that at any point in the
early NDSAP could of resulted in a "different kind" of German fascism, one in
which the logic of anti-semitism, while still overwhelming, wouldn't of ended
in genocide.
I don't think German fascism could of been anything BUT anti-Semitic. Not
given the history of German nationalism and ALL the nationalist movements,
especially in western Germany. But the Holocuast was, IMO, a specifically
Hitler-envisioned event that I doubt would of happened had Hitler been purged
from the Nazis at any point even up through 1937, 1938.
Among counter-factual historian, "alternative history" there has been a lot
of exploration of this. The key thing that some political types forget is
that it wasn't just Hitler, of course, but the 'team' he assembled in the
early 1920s, after the Kapp Putch, that set up the dynamic toward genocide
even if it wasn't totally envisioned at that time. I think the actual
genocide was brought to fruition...the "Final solution" between the beginning
of the occupation of Poland in 1939 and the start of Operation of Barbarossa.
Until then it was not even enslavement via work camp but more oppression via
segregation and ghettoization. The actual massacres of Jews as *filmed* by
Nazi propagandists in Ukraine (the emptying of and massacre of the 30,000
Jews from the Kiev Ghetto and fully witnessed by Ukrainian civilians)
occurred *before* events in Poland and during the initial stages of German
consolidation there. Interestingly the FIRST massacres in Poland were neither
Jews nor Communists (often the same thing, of course) but of all government
officials and university/academic elites...mostly of Polish nationality.
At any rate, I think it was the dynamic of Hitler's assemblage of pliant, yet
strong willed Nazi supporters around him that set up the genocide to be
carried out later, much later, buy these scum. But I think actually that had
Hitler been removed one way or another, it wouldn't have happened in this
manner or at all.
Just my thoughts on this.
David
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John Holmes
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Karl Burg wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:11:57 -0800, John Holmes
jholmes@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
In general it is not enough to draw conclusions from a book to read a
title, you should read the whole book, at least the introduction,
before drawing conclusions.
In general it is not enough to draw conclusions like you, if you don't
know anything about what I read or not and you don't!
And obviously you do not even read what I write about my reading. The
continuation of your insults against me even after I gave citations
from the book you either ignorantly or lyingly say I have not read,
leads me to the conclusion, you really don't care, it seem to be deep
seated. I give up. Not only with policemen its is difficult to break
them away from what they are doing and thinking, there are
"communists" that cannot be cracked either. For good or for bad.
Karl
Behind your bluster, you are fleeing from the argument in an |
essentially cowardly fashion. Your seeing "insults" where they were
not there is your excuse.
If in fact you did read the book rather than simply drawing your
argument from its title, there is little sign of this in your
postings. If I missed something in your posting that would have
signalled that you did indeed read it, too bad, but that is is a
remarkably poor excuse for you to abandon the discussion, and I see it
as a cover for other motives, whatever they are.
Of course, if you do not wish to discuss the issue further, that is
nobody's business but your own, but it is foolish for you to make a
production of it in this fashion.
-jh- |
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John Holmes
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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On Sat, 8 Nov 2008, Karl Burg wrote:
| Quote: | On Sat, 8 Nov 2008 11:58:40 -0800, John Holmes
jholmes@OCF.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
In practice, it is only to a small group of those who have special
ability and more time on their hands than most people (certainly APST
participants at least fall in the latter category, thouugh not
necessarily the former) where "ruthless criticism" of false ideas can
be helpful. For the masses, learning happens through action, or will
not happen.
For somebody like you who supports an organization that basically has
done nothing else than arguing in person, in speeches, in print for
decades now (not that this is what htey wanted) is is only laughable
to debunk even this kind of small scale debates happening here on APST
(special ability needed??) and counterposing to it the nonsense "For
the masses, learning happens through action, or will not happen."
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For their entire existence, except for a month or two in Germany, they
have been trying to create a propaganda organization to lay the basis
for creating a revolutionary party that can then, in the future,
intervene among the masses. Historical circumstances have made this
stance unavoidable. I must confess I was never very happy about this,
but I learned, slowly, to understand its inevitability and
unavoidability.
I am hoping that in the near future things will change in this
respect. We shall see.
| Quote: | It is the
other way round: If they have not learned something
beforehand, basically from communists, there will be no "action" and
definitively no actions in the direction of workers rule. To be a
worker for 30 years does not count a yota for communist consciousness.
Haven organized a handful of trade union struggles as a union rep
rather shows how distant this person is to communism and not how near.
But comrades like you will never give up this mantra whatever their
experiences may have been and still will be.
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Well, yes, no revolutionary party no revolution. That is ABC.
-jh-
| Quote: |
As I said before: that you (and most of the APSTlers here) now are
decades older then when you started as a communist has not made you
wiser in any meaningful way. Anybody must only read what you and the
rest say "now".
Karl
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nada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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John Holmes wrote:
| Quote: |
I believe the Holocaust was essentially tied to Operation Barbarossa. No
Barbarossa, probably no Holocaust. In Hitler's mind, Jews and communism
were the same thing. So when he decided to destroy the Soviet Union, the
Holocaust was simply part of the same package.
As it happens this is also the opinion of Goldhagen, at least as far as
timing is concerned. It was definitely *not* the opinion of Mayer. Life
is complicated.
-jh-
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It makes sense from a timing perspective. And there seems to be nothing
to indicate genocidal intention prior to Poland.
David |
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dusty
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| Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:16 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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On Nov 7, 9:33 pm, Vngelis <meberr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 7, 10:14 am, dusty <trackdu...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
On Nov 7, 3:44 pm, stephen <srdiam...@gmail.com> wrote:
In this context, it is understandable that Finkelstein's praise of German
scholarship on the Nazi era, combined with his contemptuous dismissal of "the
Holocaust Studies Industry," and his defense of Palestinian rights, should
have rubbed Jewish community nerves raw. Nonetheless, Jewish community efforts
to censor Finkelstein and Birn's valuable and useful work, though perhaps
understandable, remain inexcusable.
This is supposed to be principled! Zionist censorship is
"understandable" (by which Holmes clearly doesn't mean intelligible),
and Finkelstein is "contemptuous" in his dismissal of the Holocaust
Studies Industry.
The above represents John Holmes's concept of intellectual honesty. He
is soooooo careful that when the above is read in the most narrowly
literal fashion, he can be taken to speak the truth. But even from a
narrow legalistic standpoint, the intent behind what is communicated
decides. Here, Holmes counterposes to the "inexcusable" censorship
efforts (to which he attaches the willfully ambiguous modifier
"understandable")the (legitimate)Zionist irritation with Finkelstein's
defense of Palestinian rights. Holmes makes sure that his approval of
Zionist irritation is conveyed not by words of approval but by
counterposition. The Zionist irritation with Finkelstein's anti-
Zionism is represented as qualitatively different from what is
"nonetheless" true. In other words despite his being an asshole who
deserves the contempt of the "Jewish Community" (equated with the
Zionists), Finkelstein shouldn't be censored, only because his work is
useful.
Is vngelis correct or not that Holmes is a left-Zionist or at the
least is willing to adapt to the Zionists so unctuously that he could
be confused for one? David Walters would never write garbage like this
himself. But he will defend Holmes, if David says anything. Watch.
srd
Extreme unction: result: the brave and truthful Finkelstein has his
career killed by the black list. The Holmes's of academia get the
jobs. Shades of the fiftees.
What an eye opener is Finkelstein's The Holocaust Industry - my copy
has been passed around to nine people already. That's it - now they
have to buy their own; cheap at twice the price.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
The theory of 'interpenetrated peoples' originated as a reaction to
the 1973 Six Day wars and the oil crisis.
Catastrophism at the time affected most of the jews in the trotskyist
movement. They ended up indirectly
rallying round ...Israel. Savvas inside the Greek organisation started
to remember his ...jewish roots.
Not that that stopped him bending over backwards and praising Homeini
in Iran a few years later.
But with every catastrophe perceive or not the ...Holocaust is
mentioned.
If you say anything about immigration, Holmes reminds you Jews were
banned in entering the USA in 1925.
This is a warning shot in the debate. Watch what you are going to say
next or else...
Maybe that is why they sold Obama as a ...black man. I dont live in
the USA so cant obviously ever work
out what is going on precisely, I can only make assumptions. The only
consistent opposition to mass immigration
has been from the US Blacks. Its no coincidence that gangbox
(construction site news) is run by a Black.
They need a neo-Brezinskite to sell a watered down version of Israel
and contain opposition to mass immigration.
Will they be able to pull it off? I doubt it as millions turned out
for the Obama rallies and many of them were black.
I see it very difficult for the establishment to pull it off.
vngelis
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It's pretty sad to see some Negro working people overcome by emotion
with his election - how wrong can you be?
He is a mass immigrationist - important elements of the US
establishment would not have turned their support to him early in 2008
unless he was. He is also a strident supporter of the Israeli state
and a deep globalist. This deepest post-war economic dislocation/
depression will be used to increase moves towards reducing national
sovereignty (in the name of 'soling the crisis), as will his support
for "man-made global warming". This is all well documented before he
even gains office.
As against that the crisis discredits the neo-liberal system amongst
masses of people throughout the world. The outcome of these two
contesting forces is not predictable at this stage. |
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Tom Cod
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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And isn't a sanctimonious, resentful sense of patriotism and
chauvinism also behind it, like it didn't happen, but if it did so
what? we never did like Jews or Serbs or Muslims anyway, let's talk
about ourselves and how we're victims etc so fuck off etc. mentality
that certainly isn't limited to Germans, right. I have a couple
Croatian acquiantances who are steeped in this mentality or the "who
the fuck cares" mentality of nihilism that is also pervasive.
An excellent film in this regard is the 8 hour docu-epic "Shoah"
filmed in the late 70s, sometimes surreptituously, of survivors and
veterans of the camps that captures these attitudes. One former
member of the Einsatzgruppen is caught casually smoking a cigarette
while complaining about how he was abused by his sergeant along the
lines of;
"'Get this fucking rig moving, you fucking idiot!' he says to me"
"Hey, do I have to put up with abuse like that?"
"what about the people in the back, how do you feel about
them?" [asks interviewer]
"who, what 'people'? Oh, them"
"does your conscience ever bother you?"
". . . naaah" [taking insouciant drag off
cigarette] |
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Tom Cod
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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| "Negro"? |
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Tom Cod
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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Moreover, this treacly analysis assumes these events were an
aberration or are over. We know that is far from the case with-as to
the specific German example-thousands of Nazi war veterans escaping to
Latin America where they played a notorious role in the 70s when they
were the approximate age of Vietnam veterans today. I remember a
scene depicted in the New York Times about the death squads in
Argentina, or maybe it was Timmerman's book where these guys are
sitting around watching over a large group of doomed detainees and
musing about Trotskyism, Anarchism, Maoism and various other obscure
doctrines attached to their victims with one of them commenting along
the lines "sounds like some species of insects" and another
emphasizing how they need to understand the fine points of difference
between them in order to sort through them better etc etc. when a boss
thug exclaims:
"Why the fuck do we need to do that?" and "hey, they've got something
really basic in common"
"yeah, what's that?"
"THEY'RE ALL GONNA BE FUCKING DEAD!!!!!" in response to
which they all break out into demonic laughter. |
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Tom Cod
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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and of course what this moralistic analysis evades is an appreciation
of the political character of fascism and its roots in big business
with its obsession with destroying "Bolshevism". thus an appreciation
of counter-insurgency as a motive for these horrors. which are just
the latest example of White Terror horrors. |
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Tom Cod
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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"if the machinations of international Bolshevik-Jewish finance capital
succeed in plunging the world into the horrors of another war, this
will only result in its utter destruction; of this I give you my
solemn vow!"-[thunderous applause] Adolf Hitler addressing Reichstag
in 1939. |
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Tom Cod
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: On Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Ge |
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On Nov 8, 4:37 pm, nada <dwalters...@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | John Holmes wrote:
I believe the Holocaust was essentially tied to Operation Barbarossa. No
Barbarossa, probably no Holocaust. In Hitler's mind, Jews and communism
were the same thing. So when he decided to destroy the Soviet Union, the
Holocaust was simply part of the same package.
As it happens this is also the opinion of Goldhagen, at least as far as
timing is concerned. It was definitely *not* the opinion of Mayer. Life
is complicated.
-jh-
It makes sense from a timing perspective. And there seems to be nothing
to indicate genocidal intention prior to Poland.
David
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Basically so. |
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