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Peter Franks
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 Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Are there any absolutes? |
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I'm contemplating the discussions surrounding Prop. 8, and quickly
realize that it is difficult for either 'side' to make an arguable
point. I'm attempting to determine why, and as best as I can see, it
comes down to a fundamental difference regarding relativism.
On one side, there is the belief that certain things are absolute --
they are immutable and unchanging throughout history, independent of the
opinion of the masses.
On the other side, there is the belief that certain things (or even all
things) are relative -- they are subject to change, redefinition,
creation/destruction at the whim of opinion of the majority (or those
that are in power).
Being an enlightened thinker(1), I realize that some things are relative
(e.g. speed limits(2) -- these change over time as roads/vehicles
improve or degrade in safety), yet other things are absolute (e.g.
murder (reckless and willful taking of innocent life)).
So, should Prop. 8 /really/ be a discussion about relatives/absolutes
surrounding marriage?
(1) If you have a differing opinion, don't bother responding w/ insults
and invectives -- the only point you will prove is your inability to
participate rationally.
(2) Ironically the example, although relative, is based on an absolute
-- the preservation of life. |
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Jackney Sneeb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Nov 12, 4:33 pm, Peter Franks <n...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | So, should Prop. 8 /really/ be a discussion about relatives/absolutes
surrounding marriage?
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Proposition 8 is an example of the conundrum inherent in the belief in
"government." Each side wants its own notions about marriage to be
recognized, sanctioned, and implemented by the state. Each side
believes the voters should decide the issue - that is, until after the
voters decide. Then one side wants to deny the voters their choice by
filing lawsuits and otherwise challenging the results of the
election. In this case it happens to be those in favor of gay
marriage. (It could just as easily been the other way around.) In
fact, California voters previously rejected gay marriage in 2000 under
Proposition 22. The losers in that election got the results
overturned in May 2008 by the California supreme court. They will
probably get their way again.
The definition of marriage is a political question, which is to say
that it is purely in the eye of the beholder. It's not a relativist
issue, but rather subjectivist one. Proponents on both sides
subjectively believe their own definition is right, and furthermore
they want the state to use its power to implement their idea of
marriage. This is a manifestation of an undeclared belief that might
makes right. If both sides truly believed voting made "right," then
the losing side would have simply accepted the decision of the
majority. Instead, when one side loses to the majority, in an
election that both sides participated in, thereby assenting to the
legitimacy of the outcome, they then ask the state to use its
overwhelming force to nullify the election.
If the state can use its power on behalf of Group A, it might just as
likely use that power on behalf of Group B, which may have goals
exactly opposite from Group A's. Regarding a subjective definition of
a societal function like marriage, there are bound to be differences
of opinion, and none of the opinions can have any "proof" based on an
objective standard, because there isn't one. It then boils down to a
matter of blind luck which side "wins" the state's favor. The larger
issue in this case is whether people should invest their faith in a
"government" resolution of such a disagreement.
--Jackney Sneeb
http://nogov4me.net/index-old-2008.htm |
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Jeff Strickland
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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"Peter Franks" <none@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:SBKSk.255$MQ.28@newsfe01.iad...
| Quote: | I'm contemplating the discussions surrounding Prop. 8, and quickly realize
that it is difficult for either 'side' to make an arguable point. I'm
attempting to determine why, and as best as I can see, it comes down to a
fundamental difference regarding relativism.
On one side, there is the belief that certain things are absolute --
they are immutable and unchanging throughout history, independent of the
opinion of the masses.
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If that is another way of saying that they are rejected completely and
utterly, then they are immutable and unchanging. |
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sk8r-365
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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Peter Franks made a definite or systematic statement of:
<snip>
| Quote: | On the other side, there is the belief that certain things (or even all
things) are relative -- they are subject to change, redefinition,
creation/destruction at the whim of opinion of the majority (or those
that are in power).
snip |
Not trying to be disrespectful here, but that opinion is an absolute.
Which makes them, the "relative" crowd, hypocrites of the highest order
.... absolutely  .
--
sk8r-365
"We are not to expect to be translated from despotism to liberty in a
featherbed." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:33:50 -0800, Peter Franks
<none@invalid.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | (2) Ironically the example, although relative, is based on an absolute
-- the preservation of life.
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Nonsense
The percentage of sexual behavior you're whining about
is not significant to alter any species |
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sk8r-365
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:55 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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Jackney Sneeb made a definite or systematic statement of:
<snip>
| Quote: | It then boils down to a matter of blind luck which side "wins" the
state's favor. The larger issue in this case is whether people should
invest their faith in a "government" resolution of such a
disagreement.
|
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
--
sk8r-365
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his
justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Jackney Sneeb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Nov 12, 8:01 pm, sk8r-365 <sk8r-...@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org>
wrote:
| Quote: | Jackney Sneeb made a definite or systematic statement of:
snip
It then boils down to a matter of blind luck which side "wins" the
state's favor. The larger issue in this case is whether people should
invest their faith in a "government" resolution of such a
disagreement.
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
|
I go further than that. If "government" has no business interfering
with marriage, it has no business regulating anything.
--Jackney Sneeb
http://nogov4me.net/quiz.htm |
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Jackney Sneeb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Nov 13, 8:31 am, L...@Rightwing.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:01:37 -0600, sk8r-365
sk8r-...@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org> wrote:
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
Bad belief
The LEGAL issues surrounding "unions" or marriage are
horrificly complicated.
That's why "government" is involved.
|
This is hilarious. The legal issues ARE the result of "government"
involvement.
It is precisely BECAUSE of "government" involvement that the issue is
horrifically complicated.
--Jackney Sneeb
http://nogov4me.net/photos/us_america.htm |
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Jackney Sneeb
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Nov 13, 8:32 am, L...@Rightwing.com wrote:
| Quote: | On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:22:43 -0800 (PST), Jackney Sneeb
JackneySn...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 12, 8:01 pm, sk8r-365 <sk8r-...@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org
wrote:
Jackney Sneeb made a definite or systematic statement of:
snip
It then boils down to a matter of blind luck which side "wins" the
state's favor. The larger issue in this case is whether people should
invest their faith in a "government" resolution of such a
disagreement.
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
I go further than that. If "government" has no business interfering
with marriage, it has no business regulating anything.
Care to relate to us what you know about the condition
America was eventually left in when that kind of
nonsense was actually being practiced?
|
Sure. The colonists had just defeated the most powerful army at the
time and were enjoying freedom like the world had never seen before.
That lasted about five years. Then the control freaks took the law
into their own hands and decided to create a "government" hardly any
different from the one they had just kicked out of the country.
--Jackney Sneeb
http:nogov4me.net/archive/checks.htm |
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sk8r-365
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 8:46 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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Jackney Sneeb made a definite or systematic statement of:
| Quote: | On Nov 12, 8:01Â pm, sk8r-365 <sk8r-...@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org
wrote:
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
I go further than that. If "government" has no business interfering
with marriage, it has no business regulating anything.
|
Personally, I'd be OK with it if they'd do /only/ what the Constitution
says ... and that they'd govern not dictate!
--
sk8r-365
"Bodily decay is gloomy in prospect, but of all human contemplations the
most abhorrent is body without mind." - Thomas Jefferson |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:01:37 -0600, sk8r-365
<sk8r-365@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
|
Bad belief
The LEGAL issues surrounding "unions" or marriage are
horrificly complicated.
That's why "government" is involved. |
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Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:22:43 -0800 (PST), Jackney Sneeb
<JackneySneeb@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 12, 8:01 pm, sk8r-365 <sk8r-...@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org
wrote:
Jackney Sneeb made a definite or systematic statement of:
snip
It then boils down to a matter of blind luck which side "wins" the
state's favor. The larger issue in this case is whether people should
invest their faith in a "government" resolution of such a
disagreement.
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
I go further than that. If "government" has no business interfering
with marriage, it has no business regulating anything.
|
Care to relate to us what you know about the condition
America was eventually left in when that kind of
nonsense was actually being practiced? |
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ZerkonXXXX
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 11:49 pm Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:33:50 -0800, Peter Franks wrote:
| Quote: | Being an enlightened thinker(1)
|
.... and, in my view, indicated by enlightened concern...
| Quote: | ..............some things are relative
(e.g. speed limits(2) -- these change over time as roads/vehicles
improve or degrade in safety), yet other things are absolute (e.g.
murder (reckless and willful taking of innocent life)).
|
[Insert a deleted very long and of course brilliant reply to the above.
Mercy prevailed]
In short, yes there are absolutes. Reasoned right and wrong and a need
for social order are absolutes. Specific conclusions, outcomes and human
products being relative.
| Quote: | should Prop. 8 /really/ be a discussion about relatives/absolutes
surrounding marriage?
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For government, absolutely! not. For individuals, as they see fit.
Do you really want to have a discussion on homosexual marriage here? |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:21:14 -0800 (PST), Jackney Sneeb
<JackneySneeb@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Care to relate to us what you know about the condition
America was eventually left in when that kind of
nonsense was actually being practiced?
Sure. The colonists had just defeated the most powerful army at the
time and were enjoying freedom like the world had never seen before.
That lasted about five years. Then the control freaks took the law
into their own hands and decided to create a "government" hardly any
different from the one they had just kicked out of the country.
|
I suggest you stop watching John Wayne, Hollywood
versions of History and concentrate on the policies of
the government 1880 -- 1929 |
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Guest
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| Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 6:22 am Post subject: Re: Are there any absolutes? |
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On Thu, 13 Nov 2008 09:14:28 -0800 (PST), Jackney Sneeb
<JackneySneeb@gmail.com> wrote:
| Quote: | On Nov 13, 8:31 am, L...@Rightwing.com wrote:
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:01:37 -0600, sk8r-365
sk8r-...@sk8r.debian.lenny.invalid.org> wrote:
Jackney,
I've made this statement at other times; government should have nothing
to do with the institution of marriage. The debate would end if
government were divorced from the matter.
Bad belief
The LEGAL issues surrounding "unions" or marriage are
horrificly complicated.
That's why "government" is involved.
This is hilarious. The legal issues ARE the result of "government"
involvement.
It is precisely BECAUSE of "government" involvement that the issue is
horrifically complicated.
|
well, one thing about it
Loonytarian "believers" are blowing massive
self-inflicted holes in their own set of beliefs
The historical record is a goldmine of abuse, greed,
excesses, sickness, exploitation, and collapse of the
American economy (eventually) caused by loonytarian
policies.
Social darwinism was something that was abandoned
generations ago because of the stupidity ot it. |
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